[A-List] A view from India

mdriscoll at earthlink.net mdriscoll at earthlink.net
Thu Jan 19 17:43:38 MST 2006

Henry C.K. Liu, 
I for one would regret it if you stopped commenting on China on this list.
I have learned much from your contributions. I have no hard and fast
conclusions,  I and others on the list plainly do not know enough about it.
Burkett and Hart-Landsberg have an assessment which they base on  evidence
available to them, as I assume does Patrick Bond. At the same time, I
assume that you may have access to information on China on which you base
your assertions, which others may not have. We have all learned not to take
at face value the pronouncements of any government spokespersons, but to
look beyond those statements to the record of their actions. 

I would be most interested in what you would have to say about China's
implementation of its national policies of cooperation, and documentation
for your statement that its transactions are "so far not profitable for
China", and "not conducted for private profit.", with examples that are not
just "anecdotal" evidence but also verifiable statistical or other
processed data as illustration. 

If someone with your perspective cannot come up with this kind of
countering evidence, what are we to conclude when it is maintained that
China transacts in Africa, whether it's the government or
government-supported private entrepeneurs who are acting, in the manner we
have learned that all agents in the highly competitive setting on a world
scale of capital accumulation act, on pain of failure?


> [Original Message]
> From: Henry C.K. Liu <hliu at mindspring.com>
> To: <nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar>; The A-List <a-list at lists.econ.utah.edu>
> Date: 1/19/2006 11:11:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [A-List] A view from India
> To begin with, Sino-Africa trade is mostly conducted by the Chinese 
> government not private companies and as such it is conducted not for 
> private profit but to implement national polices which are publicly 
> decalred so that China's African trading partneer is hold China to its 
> openly declared intentions. So far, no African government has done so.  
> All the complaints are from Western or Western trained liberals. 
> Secondly, Sino-Africa trade is so far not profitable for China.  
> Thirdly, all leftist leaders in Africa and Latin America are saying 
> trade with Chins is different than trade with the West, the latest is 
> Morales of Bolivia, after Chavez. Perhaps they are all lying 
> compradors.  Finally, China is trying to help develop and buy basic 
> materials and commodities from Africa not to get it cheap but for 
> strategic geoploitical reasons to off-set protential US embargo. For 
> this reason, China will give more than equal, perhaps even preferntial 
> terms of trade to these Third World countries. What make you think the 
> bougeoisie is in charge in China?  From  Bond's assertion?
> You are a third party to Sino-Africa trade.  It seems to  there are very 
> happy bilateral partners. Yes, some of the leaders are not proper 
> democrats by Western standards, like the Saudis are, but as I said, 
> China did not put them in power - the West did.  I am not going to 
> answer any more sophmoric condamnation of China from so-called leftists. 
> I have more important things to do.  I will stop posting information on 
> China on this list from now on.
> Henry C.K. Liu
> Nestor Gorojovsky wrote:
> >Well, Henry, if this is all that can be said then -at first blush- 
> >China risks behaving towards the Third World as Britain behaved 
> >towards China.  It certainly risks behaving the way traditional 
> >colonialists did.  You know the story: first the Mission ("political, 
> >ideological, and programmatic" alliance), then the merchants, later 
> >on the troops if need be and IMF is not enough.
> >
> >What China should demonstrate is that it does not _export capital in 
> >order to turn the economies of her partners subservient economies, 
> >and to extract surplus from the partners in a non-leveraged way.
> >
> >I don't say this can not be demonstrated.  What I say is that the 
> >line of argument you follow does _not_ destroy the China-bashers as 
> >you call them because it simply relies on faith in China's good 
> >faith.
> >
> >And you don't give a single reason why a Chinese bourgeois will be, 
> >in foreign trade, less of a rogue than, say, an American bourgeois.  
> >If there is some way in which the Chinese state can operate the 
> >miracle and make Chinese bourgeois less rapacious than their Western 
> >and Japanese counterparts, it would be most interesting to be aware 
> >of it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Respuesta a:"[A-List] A view from India"
> >Enviado por:Henry C.K. Liu
> >Con fecha:18 Jan 2006, a las 18:45
> >
> >  
> >
> >>China sees the third world countries as new sources of raw materials,
> >>including energy sources. It also sees those countries as markets for
> >>its manufactured goods.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >  
> >
> >>China's attitude towards trade is very different than the western 
> >>countries. Whereas the western countries see economic relations 
> >>with the third world countries in a linear dimension, China views
> >>these relations with a multilateral approach. It forges political 
> >>and ideological relations along with economic relations. This is 
> >>why Evo Morales called China a "political, ideological, and 
> >>programmatic ally of the Bolivian people".
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >Este correo lo ha enviado
> >Néstor Miguel Gorojovsky
> >nestorgoro at fibertel.com.ar
> >[No necesariamente es su autor]
> >_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 
> >"La patria tiene que ser la dignidad arriba y el regocijo abajo".
> >Aparicio Saravia
> >_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >

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